An Interview with Noam Chomsky by Doug Richardson 4
Us just not just. Us goes back to early history. Many illusions about these things yeah. You know there does seem to be a in sort of a cyclical pattern historically with nationalism and now authoritarian machines sort of a trend toward. More of those you look at brexit Poland Philippines and so forth and perhaps here in the United States do. You see this is it as as. What is a cyclical event or do. You see this as.
Something that is growing ever closer to the precipice of dictatorship and so forth well there is what's called a rise of populism nationalism fever fear to the foreigner very easy to instigate in the United States the US has always been a very frightened Society maybe the safest country in the world but very frightened doesn't take much to scare people and if. You think that Europe is very much different. You should take a look at the polls their recent polls in Europe showed the majority of the population wants to keep. All Muslims out of Europe. All ok-hee worse there and it's a and people can easily be frightened. This morning's New York Times.
You might have noticed an article on the front page about a group in Canada and some town in Canada which is mobilizing to prevent the imposition of Sharia law there's a slight problem there aren't. Any Muslims around but it can never be too careful. One of the American states. That may be Oklahoma has actually passed laws to ban Sharia law which is just imminent as as. You can tell. This is this is this morning I got a an email from a guy who was coming to interview. Me is it was born in German in Germany. He lives in England and British citizenship he's a member of the Syrian writers organisation bitterly anti-assad on his go back a generation or two.
He Syrian he was stopped at Heathrow Airport but by Homeland Security and barred from coming to the United States. We can't be too careful who knows we'll be coming here to kill. Us no it's kind of the same mentality is carrying a gun into the Starbucks. You have a cup coffee. You know they may be coming for us there are roots of this in American history and deep roots and as. I say England is not much different but the question. We should really be asking obviously is why is this showing up everywhere right now and there's some pretty good reasons for that it has to do with the actual consequences maybe. You can argue. Whether they were intended. That they were certain predictable of the social and economic policies. That were instituted in the late 1970s the so-called neoliberal programs the Washington Consensus as. They were called a lot of fakery about it but large park was let the market handle. Everything as I've already indicated it's very far from.
That and if. You look closely. This massive subsidy doesn't very rich and powerful but for the rest let the market take care of them you have an extreme version of it. You take a look at the freedom caucus proposals today for healthcare Why should there be. Any right to health care. If people don't have enough money to pay it's their problem. They should have made better investments or found better parents or something like. That it's not the problem of society that's the radical counterpart opposite end of the spectrum to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and in fact. What most people believe but that's a strain in American history and elsewhere the fear of Polish workers in England let's say the workers who are coming to do dirty work. That English don't want to do and get ideas.
That they're somehow taking over or England there's a background for all of this the people who feel. This have indeed suffered from the impact of the neoliberal programs so. You take the United States the richest. Most privileged country and the one that in many ways was least harmed by. These programs. They largely originated here go back to 2007 that's right at the peak of euphoria about the wonderful economy. That Saint Alan Greenspan is running economists we're calling that the new moderation we've learned.
How to control the economy everything's going to be fine from. Now on this is right before the crash which ruined. Everything and incidentally undermine the entire intellectual edifice with no no impact which is quite an interesting phenomenon and intellectual history but we'll put. That aside take a look at 2007 and look at real wages for American workers. These are Supervisory workers. You know guys who were working on a assembly line building things and so on their wages were actually lower real wages were lower.
They were in 1979. These neoliberal programs were initiated so there's been and it's just it's a symbol of what's been happening all over there's been stagnation or decline for a large part of the population showing up in all sorts of ways. Now have this remarkable phenomenon in the United States of middle-aged mostly white male workers whose mortality is increasing that never happens in developed societies but mortality is increasing for this sector of the population and it's mostly diseases of hopelessness and despair. These are people who don't want to get a handout from the government have contempt for people to do angry at them they want a dignified life. They can have self-respect and what they're doing feel they're doing something important it's all been taken away from them by very specific policy similar things are happening in England background for brexit in Europe the austerity programs. That were imposed by the troika. You know the governing authorities have devastated the economy economically.
They make no sense at all. Even the International Monetary Fund economists have coming out with papers and they don't make. Any sense but the IMF bureaucrats who are not the economists or Juncker part of the troika they're implementing them along with the European Commission which is unelected and the the bank which of course unelected and that goes back to the first part of the Universal Declaration again along with. This attack on fundamental basic human rights the rights to a dignified life which our societies could easily provide with their resources along with. That there's been a shark attack on democracy and people are aware of it and you can run through the evidence which shows. It very clearly and one of the reactions is general hatred and contempt for institutions pretty much across the board they're not working for us we hate them and out of that can come. Many things. Some of the things.
That come out of that are very destructive and dangerous but other things. That come out of it are extremely hopeful. That we should pay close attention to what happened in the last elections here the most startling the event in the elections was not the election of Trump. It was the success of Bernie Sanders. That breaks from literally a century. More of us political history. Us political has been well studied by very good political scientists Tom Ferguson and others a very good predictor of electoral success it's just campaign funding and also of the policies undertaken there other factors which you which converge to empty stress. That outcome. More way before citizens united which drive open floodgates but it goes back a long time the and Sanders came along no funding no corporate funding a wealthy funding dismiss disregarded by the media a guy who was totally unknown unknown. He was using scare words like socialist which means New Deal Democrat and he practically.
He could it hadn't been for party shenanigans party managers. He might will have won the election that's not only a radical change from American history but also a very promising and hopeful sign for the future and it's extended by popular attitudes today there was a poll a couple of weeks ago by Fox News of all people who tried to find who was the most popular political figure in the United States and one person was way ahead of anyone else Bernie Sanders and among young people. More all of that that's another form of what takes place. When social and economic conditions are bringing about stress despair anger fear. You know one kind of reaction is violence and xenophobia racism and so on another kind of reaction is futility let's just give up it's too big for us third kind of reactions let's do. Something about it and there's every reason to think. That that can be done so there are no reasons for real despair very hopeful signs.
I think that's great. You know you have a habit of being so comprehensive in discussing these topics and leading to the next logical topic. That you just already expressed my next questions. One being on the concentration of wealth and the ownership of the media by a few and it's its role in in in the role of money. More more broadly in elections and you just pointed out. One way around. That but it's a very difficult course still. When you've got the media controlled by corporations and most of those corporations have the same interests as as other corporations and so what's the prognosis in terms of how. You practically. What strategy is there to to roll. That back well. I think there are two parallel tracks. Both of which have been followed but one is to change the media and I think that's been done there's a lot wrong with the media the major media I'm talking about New York Times CBS Washington Post plenty wrong with them but I think they're a lot better. They were 30 or 40 years ago part of the reason is that the society has just become. More civilized the impact of the activism of the 1960s and later years has simply been to educate people to change their attitudes on all sorts of things so for example take take say the two kind of core basic crimes American history through horrible crimes that's near extermination of the indigenous population and slavery indescribable crimes back in the 1960s.
They were particularly regarded as crimes so. You look at the leading anthropologists. That best scholars in the 1960s. What they were saying about indigenous population in the United States not just the United States whole continent was maybe a million people hunter-gatherers and straggling around didn't possess land so didn't mean. Anything to take away from them that's not there's no longer true. Either of scholarship or even. What kids recent breeding school it's a long way to go but the history has been very significantly the false history has been very significantly overcome it's now possible for not just scholars but high school students to learn a good deal of what really happened and there is a reaction so for example the state of Arkansas a couple of months ago the legislature legislature initiated a legislation. I don't know what happened to it to ban Howard Zinn's books from the school's you didn't have to do. That 30 years ago.
Because they couldn't have possibly entered into the schools that's a sign of progress significant progress pretty much the same is true of slavery the real nature of American slavery is just being exposed in recent years by serious scholarship. I mean it's not. That a lot of things weren't known. You know they work but they were kind of hidden in arcane places. Now it's becoming public knowledge on the basis of very serious work which is bringing out entirely new information. These are big changes well.
That affects media to the people in the media grew out of this culture they're. More civilized. They were in the 1960s and 50s and the other path is just creation of alternative media which is far easier. It was then far easier and can be done very effectively things like say Amy Goodman's Democracy Now are a real means for many people to get a view of the world. That they wouldn't gotten before and many other things like. That glenn greenwald's and intercept. Many others.
Something that is growing ever closer to the precipice of dictatorship and so forth well there is what's called a rise of populism nationalism fever fear to the foreigner very easy to instigate in the United States the US has always been a very frightened Society maybe the safest country in the world but very frightened doesn't take much to scare people and if. You think that Europe is very much different. You should take a look at the polls their recent polls in Europe showed the majority of the population wants to keep. All Muslims out of Europe. All ok-hee worse there and it's a and people can easily be frightened. This morning's New York Times.
You might have noticed an article on the front page about a group in Canada and some town in Canada which is mobilizing to prevent the imposition of Sharia law there's a slight problem there aren't. Any Muslims around but it can never be too careful. One of the American states. That may be Oklahoma has actually passed laws to ban Sharia law which is just imminent as as. You can tell. This is this is this morning I got a an email from a guy who was coming to interview. Me is it was born in German in Germany. He lives in England and British citizenship he's a member of the Syrian writers organisation bitterly anti-assad on his go back a generation or two.
He Syrian he was stopped at Heathrow Airport but by Homeland Security and barred from coming to the United States. We can't be too careful who knows we'll be coming here to kill. Us no it's kind of the same mentality is carrying a gun into the Starbucks. You have a cup coffee. You know they may be coming for us there are roots of this in American history and deep roots and as. I say England is not much different but the question. We should really be asking obviously is why is this showing up everywhere right now and there's some pretty good reasons for that it has to do with the actual consequences maybe. You can argue. Whether they were intended. That they were certain predictable of the social and economic policies. That were instituted in the late 1970s the so-called neoliberal programs the Washington Consensus as. They were called a lot of fakery about it but large park was let the market handle. Everything as I've already indicated it's very far from.
That and if. You look closely. This massive subsidy doesn't very rich and powerful but for the rest let the market take care of them you have an extreme version of it. You take a look at the freedom caucus proposals today for healthcare Why should there be. Any right to health care. If people don't have enough money to pay it's their problem. They should have made better investments or found better parents or something like. That it's not the problem of society that's the radical counterpart opposite end of the spectrum to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and in fact. What most people believe but that's a strain in American history and elsewhere the fear of Polish workers in England let's say the workers who are coming to do dirty work. That English don't want to do and get ideas.
That they're somehow taking over or England there's a background for all of this the people who feel. This have indeed suffered from the impact of the neoliberal programs so. You take the United States the richest. Most privileged country and the one that in many ways was least harmed by. These programs. They largely originated here go back to 2007 that's right at the peak of euphoria about the wonderful economy. That Saint Alan Greenspan is running economists we're calling that the new moderation we've learned.
How to control the economy everything's going to be fine from. Now on this is right before the crash which ruined. Everything and incidentally undermine the entire intellectual edifice with no no impact which is quite an interesting phenomenon and intellectual history but we'll put. That aside take a look at 2007 and look at real wages for American workers. These are Supervisory workers. You know guys who were working on a assembly line building things and so on their wages were actually lower real wages were lower.
They were in 1979. These neoliberal programs were initiated so there's been and it's just it's a symbol of what's been happening all over there's been stagnation or decline for a large part of the population showing up in all sorts of ways. Now have this remarkable phenomenon in the United States of middle-aged mostly white male workers whose mortality is increasing that never happens in developed societies but mortality is increasing for this sector of the population and it's mostly diseases of hopelessness and despair. These are people who don't want to get a handout from the government have contempt for people to do angry at them they want a dignified life. They can have self-respect and what they're doing feel they're doing something important it's all been taken away from them by very specific policy similar things are happening in England background for brexit in Europe the austerity programs. That were imposed by the troika. You know the governing authorities have devastated the economy economically.
They make no sense at all. Even the International Monetary Fund economists have coming out with papers and they don't make. Any sense but the IMF bureaucrats who are not the economists or Juncker part of the troika they're implementing them along with the European Commission which is unelected and the the bank which of course unelected and that goes back to the first part of the Universal Declaration again along with. This attack on fundamental basic human rights the rights to a dignified life which our societies could easily provide with their resources along with. That there's been a shark attack on democracy and people are aware of it and you can run through the evidence which shows. It very clearly and one of the reactions is general hatred and contempt for institutions pretty much across the board they're not working for us we hate them and out of that can come. Many things. Some of the things.
That come out of that are very destructive and dangerous but other things. That come out of it are extremely hopeful. That we should pay close attention to what happened in the last elections here the most startling the event in the elections was not the election of Trump. It was the success of Bernie Sanders. That breaks from literally a century. More of us political history. Us political has been well studied by very good political scientists Tom Ferguson and others a very good predictor of electoral success it's just campaign funding and also of the policies undertaken there other factors which you which converge to empty stress. That outcome. More way before citizens united which drive open floodgates but it goes back a long time the and Sanders came along no funding no corporate funding a wealthy funding dismiss disregarded by the media a guy who was totally unknown unknown. He was using scare words like socialist which means New Deal Democrat and he practically.
He could it hadn't been for party shenanigans party managers. He might will have won the election that's not only a radical change from American history but also a very promising and hopeful sign for the future and it's extended by popular attitudes today there was a poll a couple of weeks ago by Fox News of all people who tried to find who was the most popular political figure in the United States and one person was way ahead of anyone else Bernie Sanders and among young people. More all of that that's another form of what takes place. When social and economic conditions are bringing about stress despair anger fear. You know one kind of reaction is violence and xenophobia racism and so on another kind of reaction is futility let's just give up it's too big for us third kind of reactions let's do. Something about it and there's every reason to think. That that can be done so there are no reasons for real despair very hopeful signs.
I think that's great. You know you have a habit of being so comprehensive in discussing these topics and leading to the next logical topic. That you just already expressed my next questions. One being on the concentration of wealth and the ownership of the media by a few and it's its role in in in the role of money. More more broadly in elections and you just pointed out. One way around. That but it's a very difficult course still. When you've got the media controlled by corporations and most of those corporations have the same interests as as other corporations and so what's the prognosis in terms of how. You practically. What strategy is there to to roll. That back well. I think there are two parallel tracks. Both of which have been followed but one is to change the media and I think that's been done there's a lot wrong with the media the major media I'm talking about New York Times CBS Washington Post plenty wrong with them but I think they're a lot better. They were 30 or 40 years ago part of the reason is that the society has just become. More civilized the impact of the activism of the 1960s and later years has simply been to educate people to change their attitudes on all sorts of things so for example take take say the two kind of core basic crimes American history through horrible crimes that's near extermination of the indigenous population and slavery indescribable crimes back in the 1960s.
They were particularly regarded as crimes so. You look at the leading anthropologists. That best scholars in the 1960s. What they were saying about indigenous population in the United States not just the United States whole continent was maybe a million people hunter-gatherers and straggling around didn't possess land so didn't mean. Anything to take away from them that's not there's no longer true. Either of scholarship or even. What kids recent breeding school it's a long way to go but the history has been very significantly the false history has been very significantly overcome it's now possible for not just scholars but high school students to learn a good deal of what really happened and there is a reaction so for example the state of Arkansas a couple of months ago the legislature legislature initiated a legislation. I don't know what happened to it to ban Howard Zinn's books from the school's you didn't have to do. That 30 years ago.
Because they couldn't have possibly entered into the schools that's a sign of progress significant progress pretty much the same is true of slavery the real nature of American slavery is just being exposed in recent years by serious scholarship. I mean it's not. That a lot of things weren't known. You know they work but they were kind of hidden in arcane places. Now it's becoming public knowledge on the basis of very serious work which is bringing out entirely new information. These are big changes well.
That affects media to the people in the media grew out of this culture they're. More civilized. They were in the 1960s and 50s and the other path is just creation of alternative media which is far easier. It was then far easier and can be done very effectively things like say Amy Goodman's Democracy Now are a real means for many people to get a view of the world. That they wouldn't gotten before and many other things like. That glenn greenwald's and intercept. Many others.
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