An Interview with Noam Chomsky by Doug Richardson 5
That you all know about so there's plenty of things. That can be done it's the matter of grasping the nettle doing the things. That you have opportunities for yeah. It is interesting how with. These with these populist changes and the way in which the candidates have continued to stoke really historical roots of racism and anti-semitism and the substantial rise in in. Both of those areas in Europe as well as here in the United States that's a really frightening thing I was taking my anti-semitism. I mean I'm in my late 80s so. I could remember the nineteen thirties and it was pretty scary not just. What was happening in Europe which was terrifying but what was in ordinary life here so my my father was a my parents were teachers Hebrew teachers so.
They had a they kind of survived the depression. You know they didn't start in fact the whole family was coming around being helped by the few people I'd judge around nineteen thirty seven. I guess my father had enough money to buy a second-hand car. We live in Philadelphia and my parents decided to take. Us in the weekend out to the nearby mountains just Poconos just to spend the weekend weekend vacation. I had to get a motel there were the motels. You had to look at carefully. Because there were word there were signs on them. That said restricted restricted meant no Jews. You didn't have to say no blacks.
That question didn't arise. You know but no Jews 19 that's late 1930s. I could tell. You personal anecdotes of what it was like to grow up on the streets as a young Jewish boy and an Irish Catholic neighborhood very nice but when. I got to Harvard in the early 1950s the anti-semitism was overwhelming there was practically no Jewish faculty. One of the reasons why MIT became a major university is that outstanding people like say Norbert Wiener others couldn't possibly get jobs at Harvard well. That was anti-semitism in the nineteen thirties forties and fifties there are problems. Now but it's nothing like. That absolutely. Nothing like. That it's much better. It was so it's not. Something to laugh at by. Any means those who have experienced. It and lived through the periods of the hideous atrocities in Europe are certainly not going to disparage. It but we have to recognize. That it's become radically different by.
Now Jews are. One of the most privileged. That may be the most privileged minority in the country and pretty much the same is true of so-called European anti-semitism so. I think we should certainly not disregard. It but to recognize. How far we've come and not only. How far we've come but why the progress was made that's what's critical. Because those are the things. That we can continue to carry forward instead of succumbing to the futility and despair in building on that that discussion I'd like to talk about what is a sort of an under the rising area of resistance at least perceived resistance in poison and that's the rise in boycotts very distant voice various different areas and you were quoted in The Chronicle of Higher Education recently noting that that you had come out against the BDS the boycott into Vistage divestiture and sanctions arguing that failed initiatives which is how.
You characterize much of the BDS movement arm the victims doubly by quote shifting attention away from their plight and to other issues such as anti-semitism and academic freedom and by wasting current opportunities to do. Something meaningful. You want to elaborate on that or give. Us your thoughts and how. You arrived at that position o mentioning boycotts. We shouldn't overlook the fact. That again as. You all know there is a boycott movement right here of distinguished geographers who have called for a boycott of the mark and geographical association in protest against the kind of regulations and the procedures.
That the Trump administration is instituting the case of this Syrian actually British writer seer in origin who I mentioned before is an indication of what's happening that's an issue could certainly be thought about how should professional societies react to this kind of thing so for example should professional society meetings take place in the United States too serious question should. They take place in a country. Where people from designated countries designated by the authorities are not allowed to come freely the Latin American Studies Association years ago. We can to have conferences elsewhere because of the restrictions against Cubans dollars. I think those are. All things to be thought about now the BDS movement is a different matter first of all we have to make a distinction between the tactics BDS tactics and the BDS movement.
They happen to be quite different things so BDS tactics in the israel-palestine case were actually initiated in 1997 by an Israeli group who Shalom were hinari's group strongly anti occupation militantly had a occupation a very significant played a very significant role still group. They proposed boycotts of the settlement and divestment from. Anything involving the settlements and that's been. I myself have been involved in the Israeli BD activities there are no real sanctions as that's a state matter but these I've been involved in these things since late nineties. It took off and at the settlements. Now here questions arise the BDS movement which developed in 19 2005 has a different approach that's the movement not the tactics their approach calls for if. You read the list of principles there is a set of principles. You take it literally they're calling for boycott of Israel divestment from Israel sanctions on Israel until then comes a long list of conditions. Some of which everyone knows are totally unrealizable like. One of the conditions that's listed in this almost catechism is return of the refugees in accord with international law well first of all it's accord with international law a separate question but return of the refugees.
You can think. Whatever you like about the morality of that but everyone knows. It is not going to happen there's no international support for it. If there ever were. That serious support Israel would go. All out using nuclear weapons. Anything else to prevent. It so it's not going to happen and dangling this hope in front of people living in miserable refugee camps and Lebanon and Jordan is not a good idea or moral position in my view. You take a look at the in all BDS is not a principle it's a tactic just as. It was in the case of South Africa it's a tactic tactics have to be designed so. That they're going to have favorable effects for the victims a tactics aren't designed so. That the person who undertakes them can feel good.
That it's not a way to design package at least. If you're you have ethical imperatives. You ask yourself what's the impact on the victims and if. You take a look there's a record of significant success very significant success of BD really BD tactics aimed at the settlements say the Presbyterian Church for example big organization has taken a very strong stand on divestment and boycott of anything having anything to do with the settlements and crucially. They aim also at US institutions US multinationals. That are involved in the occupied territories that's very significant. Both for educational reasons and tactical reasons and that's been a big success and there are other successes like. That and I think those are very good sensible tactics the European Union has taken. Some steps in that direction the human rights groups like Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International have advocated similar things. All of that makes a lot of sense.
I think in principle and it's tactically effective and it should go way beyond so take. If there's ever going to be. Any significant progress in Palestinian rights it's going to require a major change in the United States as long as the United States continues as. It has been doing for decades to provide an economic diplomatic military. Even ideological support for the settlement project they're not going to end. They may take use different words but they're not going to end they're going to continue and the us does not have to do. That American citizens can prevent. That in fact. One critical tactic. That I think or we pursued I've been advocating this for years is simply imposing American law American law so-called lay amendment bans. Any military aid to any military unit or group. That is involved in systematic human rights violations well. I don't have to go through the record but anyone who's looked at the wars in Gaza or what goes on in the West Bank has no doubt in Lebanon as well has no doubt. That the Israeli army has been engaged in systematic human rights violations so therefore by American law. We or cancel the military autonomy. Even a move in that direction could have significant implications very significant it's a little bit like the standard story for the press there are plenty of things.
We can do you think them through ask. What the consequences are. What the possibilities and opportunities are and then pursue them seriously not. Because something makes. You feel good but because it's beneficial to the victims that's the course and that should be uppermost. All the time and I'd like to ask a question. Now about you know. We have many many of our members or come from them come from China. These days and we're really glad to have them as part of our organization. I want to get your your thoughts on the rise of China which has been remarkable from an economic perspective and the you know it's extensive investments. Now has around the world in name. You imagine a time in the near future. When when the dominant economy and the dominant sort of international network let's call. It would I will see sort of transcend. That of the US and in Europe go back a couple centuries 17th century China and India were the most advanced commercial and industrial centers in the world England had to steal technology from India's where it's on Industrial Development textiles shipbuilding and others it was so extreme.
When during the Napoleonic Wars. When England was really in sometimes in dire straits Parliament banned import of superior Indian ships so as to protect the but the new British shipbuilding industry well of course. That all changed through colonialism and now China is beginning to recover. Something like its traditional role the Middle Kingdom to. Each other's paid tributary it's in many ways a pretty ugly process and threatening in many ways it's had its positive consequence will China. I mean there are. Now books coming out in fact there have been for decades recent. One Gideon Rachman and others talking about the Asian century. That the center of power is going to shift the first shifted from Europe to the United States. Now as Russia over the Pacific. I don't think there's much reason to believe. That China has quite a lot a very big economy about purchasing power parity roughly like the United States but it's a very poor country take a look at the UN Human Development Index China. I think is around 90th India's maybe 130 and they've been pretty well stuck there. They have plenty of huge problems.
That we don't face. Now also ecological problems. This they don't have much in the way of rich agricultural resources the way. We do and that's being destroyed China is taking sensible significant steps towards towards addressing the environmental catastrophe it's kind of astonishing that today the world is looking to China to first salvation as the United States is going backwards that's an astounding fact and China is doing it but they have plenty of problems. I think it will be a long time before. They become. Anything like the Western powers and wealth and privilege. Now United States power has been declining there's you've.
All heard the phrase America's decline common young common lament. You can get Foreign Affairs in Maine International Affairs journal and had a page cover a couple years ago called is America over or something like. That this is all fear-mongering American power has declined from its peak which was after the Second World War. You have to go back and think. What it was like second world war was very beneficial to the US economy the US wasn't much touched by the war other industrial economies were devastated or destroyed the US manufacturing practically quadrupled pulled. Us out of the depression a big fact. It was a big backlog of technology other possibilities for the great growth rate of the following years the US had the know tinted statistics were very good in those days but it's some estimate.
That the US may have had almost half of world we'll probably not. That high but something like. That well of course. That declined. That was never going to last and it declined very quickly in fact the first step in the decline was China in 1949 an event took place which is called in modern US history the loss of China which is a very revealing phrase and I noticed. That nowadays it's sometimes put in quotes. Because it's so ludicrous but for many decades. It was called the loss of China meaning we own China and we lost.
They had a they kind of survived the depression. You know they didn't start in fact the whole family was coming around being helped by the few people I'd judge around nineteen thirty seven. I guess my father had enough money to buy a second-hand car. We live in Philadelphia and my parents decided to take. Us in the weekend out to the nearby mountains just Poconos just to spend the weekend weekend vacation. I had to get a motel there were the motels. You had to look at carefully. Because there were word there were signs on them. That said restricted restricted meant no Jews. You didn't have to say no blacks.
That question didn't arise. You know but no Jews 19 that's late 1930s. I could tell. You personal anecdotes of what it was like to grow up on the streets as a young Jewish boy and an Irish Catholic neighborhood very nice but when. I got to Harvard in the early 1950s the anti-semitism was overwhelming there was practically no Jewish faculty. One of the reasons why MIT became a major university is that outstanding people like say Norbert Wiener others couldn't possibly get jobs at Harvard well. That was anti-semitism in the nineteen thirties forties and fifties there are problems. Now but it's nothing like. That absolutely. Nothing like. That it's much better. It was so it's not. Something to laugh at by. Any means those who have experienced. It and lived through the periods of the hideous atrocities in Europe are certainly not going to disparage. It but we have to recognize. That it's become radically different by.
Now Jews are. One of the most privileged. That may be the most privileged minority in the country and pretty much the same is true of so-called European anti-semitism so. I think we should certainly not disregard. It but to recognize. How far we've come and not only. How far we've come but why the progress was made that's what's critical. Because those are the things. That we can continue to carry forward instead of succumbing to the futility and despair in building on that that discussion I'd like to talk about what is a sort of an under the rising area of resistance at least perceived resistance in poison and that's the rise in boycotts very distant voice various different areas and you were quoted in The Chronicle of Higher Education recently noting that that you had come out against the BDS the boycott into Vistage divestiture and sanctions arguing that failed initiatives which is how.
You characterize much of the BDS movement arm the victims doubly by quote shifting attention away from their plight and to other issues such as anti-semitism and academic freedom and by wasting current opportunities to do. Something meaningful. You want to elaborate on that or give. Us your thoughts and how. You arrived at that position o mentioning boycotts. We shouldn't overlook the fact. That again as. You all know there is a boycott movement right here of distinguished geographers who have called for a boycott of the mark and geographical association in protest against the kind of regulations and the procedures.
That the Trump administration is instituting the case of this Syrian actually British writer seer in origin who I mentioned before is an indication of what's happening that's an issue could certainly be thought about how should professional societies react to this kind of thing so for example should professional society meetings take place in the United States too serious question should. They take place in a country. Where people from designated countries designated by the authorities are not allowed to come freely the Latin American Studies Association years ago. We can to have conferences elsewhere because of the restrictions against Cubans dollars. I think those are. All things to be thought about now the BDS movement is a different matter first of all we have to make a distinction between the tactics BDS tactics and the BDS movement.
They happen to be quite different things so BDS tactics in the israel-palestine case were actually initiated in 1997 by an Israeli group who Shalom were hinari's group strongly anti occupation militantly had a occupation a very significant played a very significant role still group. They proposed boycotts of the settlement and divestment from. Anything involving the settlements and that's been. I myself have been involved in the Israeli BD activities there are no real sanctions as that's a state matter but these I've been involved in these things since late nineties. It took off and at the settlements. Now here questions arise the BDS movement which developed in 19 2005 has a different approach that's the movement not the tactics their approach calls for if. You read the list of principles there is a set of principles. You take it literally they're calling for boycott of Israel divestment from Israel sanctions on Israel until then comes a long list of conditions. Some of which everyone knows are totally unrealizable like. One of the conditions that's listed in this almost catechism is return of the refugees in accord with international law well first of all it's accord with international law a separate question but return of the refugees.
You can think. Whatever you like about the morality of that but everyone knows. It is not going to happen there's no international support for it. If there ever were. That serious support Israel would go. All out using nuclear weapons. Anything else to prevent. It so it's not going to happen and dangling this hope in front of people living in miserable refugee camps and Lebanon and Jordan is not a good idea or moral position in my view. You take a look at the in all BDS is not a principle it's a tactic just as. It was in the case of South Africa it's a tactic tactics have to be designed so. That they're going to have favorable effects for the victims a tactics aren't designed so. That the person who undertakes them can feel good.
That it's not a way to design package at least. If you're you have ethical imperatives. You ask yourself what's the impact on the victims and if. You take a look there's a record of significant success very significant success of BD really BD tactics aimed at the settlements say the Presbyterian Church for example big organization has taken a very strong stand on divestment and boycott of anything having anything to do with the settlements and crucially. They aim also at US institutions US multinationals. That are involved in the occupied territories that's very significant. Both for educational reasons and tactical reasons and that's been a big success and there are other successes like. That and I think those are very good sensible tactics the European Union has taken. Some steps in that direction the human rights groups like Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International have advocated similar things. All of that makes a lot of sense.
I think in principle and it's tactically effective and it should go way beyond so take. If there's ever going to be. Any significant progress in Palestinian rights it's going to require a major change in the United States as long as the United States continues as. It has been doing for decades to provide an economic diplomatic military. Even ideological support for the settlement project they're not going to end. They may take use different words but they're not going to end they're going to continue and the us does not have to do. That American citizens can prevent. That in fact. One critical tactic. That I think or we pursued I've been advocating this for years is simply imposing American law American law so-called lay amendment bans. Any military aid to any military unit or group. That is involved in systematic human rights violations well. I don't have to go through the record but anyone who's looked at the wars in Gaza or what goes on in the West Bank has no doubt in Lebanon as well has no doubt. That the Israeli army has been engaged in systematic human rights violations so therefore by American law. We or cancel the military autonomy. Even a move in that direction could have significant implications very significant it's a little bit like the standard story for the press there are plenty of things.
We can do you think them through ask. What the consequences are. What the possibilities and opportunities are and then pursue them seriously not. Because something makes. You feel good but because it's beneficial to the victims that's the course and that should be uppermost. All the time and I'd like to ask a question. Now about you know. We have many many of our members or come from them come from China. These days and we're really glad to have them as part of our organization. I want to get your your thoughts on the rise of China which has been remarkable from an economic perspective and the you know it's extensive investments. Now has around the world in name. You imagine a time in the near future. When when the dominant economy and the dominant sort of international network let's call. It would I will see sort of transcend. That of the US and in Europe go back a couple centuries 17th century China and India were the most advanced commercial and industrial centers in the world England had to steal technology from India's where it's on Industrial Development textiles shipbuilding and others it was so extreme.
When during the Napoleonic Wars. When England was really in sometimes in dire straits Parliament banned import of superior Indian ships so as to protect the but the new British shipbuilding industry well of course. That all changed through colonialism and now China is beginning to recover. Something like its traditional role the Middle Kingdom to. Each other's paid tributary it's in many ways a pretty ugly process and threatening in many ways it's had its positive consequence will China. I mean there are. Now books coming out in fact there have been for decades recent. One Gideon Rachman and others talking about the Asian century. That the center of power is going to shift the first shifted from Europe to the United States. Now as Russia over the Pacific. I don't think there's much reason to believe. That China has quite a lot a very big economy about purchasing power parity roughly like the United States but it's a very poor country take a look at the UN Human Development Index China. I think is around 90th India's maybe 130 and they've been pretty well stuck there. They have plenty of huge problems.
That we don't face. Now also ecological problems. This they don't have much in the way of rich agricultural resources the way. We do and that's being destroyed China is taking sensible significant steps towards towards addressing the environmental catastrophe it's kind of astonishing that today the world is looking to China to first salvation as the United States is going backwards that's an astounding fact and China is doing it but they have plenty of problems. I think it will be a long time before. They become. Anything like the Western powers and wealth and privilege. Now United States power has been declining there's you've.
All heard the phrase America's decline common young common lament. You can get Foreign Affairs in Maine International Affairs journal and had a page cover a couple years ago called is America over or something like. That this is all fear-mongering American power has declined from its peak which was after the Second World War. You have to go back and think. What it was like second world war was very beneficial to the US economy the US wasn't much touched by the war other industrial economies were devastated or destroyed the US manufacturing practically quadrupled pulled. Us out of the depression a big fact. It was a big backlog of technology other possibilities for the great growth rate of the following years the US had the know tinted statistics were very good in those days but it's some estimate.
That the US may have had almost half of world we'll probably not. That high but something like. That well of course. That declined. That was never going to last and it declined very quickly in fact the first step in the decline was China in 1949 an event took place which is called in modern US history the loss of China which is a very revealing phrase and I noticed. That nowadays it's sometimes put in quotes. Because it's so ludicrous but for many decades. It was called the loss of China meaning we own China and we lost.
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